Subject: sheep dairy plans
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From: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 9:59 PM
To: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
I never could find the ones I did before so I redrew them. Attached should be a pdf with three floor plans. Phase I, II, III. If the state will let me and my markets hold up I would like to start out just freezing all my milk and selling it frozen to someeone else for transport to their cheesemaking plant. Thus phase I, in which there is no room for a bulk tank and the processing room is just a walk in freezer. In case my markets don't hold up, or the state won't let me, or whenever I am ready to expand into cheesemaking of my own I will pour another adjacent slab and expand as shown. Phase III is another expansion allowing more processing and aging room to move into additional product lines and/or greater volumes of hard cheeses requiring extended press and cure time. Phase IV, which I don't have shown here, is an expansion of the parlor to a double 8, acomplished by putting another platform in the areas occupied by the bath/equip/milk room, which three rooms move into the proc room which moves into the cooler space which moves onto another slab. I have no plans to establish a receiving station and use milk from other farms, but if at all possible need the facility to be compatible with that use ie milk room must be accessible by milk truck.
Clear as mud? The real challenge is coming up with the placement of electrical outlets, light fixtures, floor drains, doors, windows and water supply lines to accomadate serial expansion including relocation of various functions. If I can approach it stepwise like this I can probably pay as I go without having to borrow anything.
Check the blog for some of the construction specs- fiberglass reinforced concrete, radiant hydronic floor heating (extends into holding area) with heat provided from solar panels using rain water. Will probably end up with concrete block construction, as I can save so much on the labor (even I can lay block) and it will be so much more durable, plus easier to maintain constant temp inside.
I'll put together a drawing showing relative locations of dairy to house, barn, holding pen, etc. If I can I'll shoot a vdeo fo the site tomorrow so you can see it. Mu husband calls it the temple mount, you can't understand why until you see it.
Eden Myers
Garden of Eden Farms
http://www.gardenofedenfarms.com/
http://www.gardenofedenfarms.blogspot.com/
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From: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM
To: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
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From: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 5:09 AM
To: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Hi Eden,
I received your plans. Planning out a dream like this is so exciting…and challenging. I look forward to working to come up with a great solution that will be both affordable, functional and attractive. I am tied up the next couple of days but I hope to have some time to devote to this over the weekend. I'm sure it will take a few iterations to get to a final layout…and until I understand all your requirements and the implications of those requirements so feel free to critique anything you don't care for. I think this type of project is just a lot of fun.
Frank Kipe
Old Springhouse Farm and
MicroDairy Designs LLC
301-824-3689
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From: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:27 AM
To: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
Forgot to put in last night's emial- 8 ft walls. Here the only drain that can be connected to septic tank is toilet. Floor drains must run to daylight. Can't remember about hand sinks, pretty sure they go into floor drains.
Eden
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From: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:46 AM
To: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Hi Eden,
I thought I would send you a very preliminary sketch of Phase 1 because it provides the basis for a few questions.
I would value your opinions/preferences on several issues before I progress too far.
Are the dimensions you provided interior or exterior? I assumed the overall dimensions were exterior dimensions but as you can see when you add in the wall thicknesses some of the small rooms get really small. It is very simple to change any of these assumptions so feel free to edit away at my assumptions.
What size of concrete block are you planning to use? I drew the plan assuming 8" thick for exterior walls. 4" thick for interior walls.
Do you have any plans for windows?
Enclosed is a 2D Floor plan pdf and a 3D Model pdf that you can rotate around to get a feel how things would look from varying perspectives.
I spent an hour this morning reading your blog. Very impressive. You write very well and I like the chatty, informal and upbeat style and informative content.
Have an excellent day.
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From: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:46 AM
To: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
Frank,
Thanks for working on this, and thanks for reading the blog! I can answer some of the questions before looking at the attachment, which I won't be able to do until tonight.
Measurements are exterior, may have to be modified if, as you noted, interior spaces are just too small to get the job done! We did construct several extra feet of site in all directions just in case...
Interior walls will be studded, since I am planning on reconstructing several times in (hopefully) rapid succession.
Windows- lots of them- wherever possible- also clear panels in the roof/ceiling for natural light wherever possible- but figured we could plug those in once we got a workable floor plan that allowed for succesive expansion?
Thanks!
Eden
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From: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:24 AM
To: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
The lab has a wall coming out into the room, no door in it. It is accessed through the wall which you have solid- other dairies I have seen the inspectors consider it ok not to actually hang a door.
The ends wall, where we will expand, needs to be studded like an interior wall (which it iwll become).
Now, can floor drains etc be locaterd to allow for expansion?
Eden
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From: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:14 PM
To: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Hi Eden,
I am glad you liked the 3D view. It sometimes helps with perspective particularly when you start adding in equipment, sinks etc.
Sorry, I misunderstood the intent on the lab…that's great, in MD we have to have them completely closed off…even a rubber door sweep under the door
What are your thoughts about the room sizes…do they look OK? The main concern I have at this point is with the equipment room. I assume you will need at least the following in there…electrical panel, water heater, water treatment?, vacuum pump. Presently I have 3 doors in that room, one out of the milking parlor, one to the bathroom, one to the milk room. That leaves virtually no room for any equipment. Would you like me to play around with room and door locations to optimize that space while meeting the PMO requirements (eg no door opening directly from a bathroom into a milk room etc.)
For the studded walls, are you using wood or galvanized studs? Will the studded walls be insulated? Will they be enclosed with drywall, FRP/Glassboard or what? I just want to know what to use for wall thicknesses…currently I have used 4".
Expansion issues. The only place I see needing a new floor drain in Phases 2 and 3 is in the processing room. I think if you extended your concrete pad a foot or two past your parlor end wall you could have all of your drain lines laid down in the first phase and subsequent expansion would be much easier and relatively inexpensive. Just slope the new processing room floor towards the drain next to the parlor.
One question I have regarding expansion is the parlor. Please understand that my experience is with cows and not with sheep so my assumptions may be all wrong. Please feel very free to tell me to shut up and draw or to argue with me J. If you expanded your parlor width by a foot, I believe you could fit a double 8 parlor in your existing space. We have found that there is seldom any benefit to a rapid exit parlor vs a standard exit parlor until you get to at least 12 stalls long or unless you are milking at least 8 hours per day. Here's how the analysis goes. Assume you are milking 96 animals in an 8 stall parlor. That is twelve "turns" per milking. Assume the animals will exit a rapid exit parlor in 10 seconds and a standard exit 8 stall parlor in 40 seconds (those are valid numbers for cows, I don't know about sheep). You are saving 30 seconds per group or 6 minutes per milking. But since you have a 4 foot platform to clean instead of an 8 foot platform you will gain back most of that time at cleanup. Obviously, any change to the assumptions would change the analysis results so do your own analysis and see where you come out. The benefits of the standard exit parlor are: The stalls are generally cheaper and less mechanically complicated. It's easy to expand once you have built the space…just add an additional platform and additional milkers. You don't have to worry about Phase 4 construction. Just a thought.
With your responses to these issues I'll go to work on the rest of the drawings.
Attached are the minor revisions I already made for the lab and the end wall.
-----Original Message-----
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From: Eden Myers <m1231e@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 11:34 AM
To: Frank Kipe <frank@kipe.com>
Walls- interior- 2x4nominal wood studs covered with what I call dairy sheeting- it's a white plastic material about 1/8 or 1/4" thick, maybe called FRP? Insulation between studs, vapor barrier both sides. Whole wall would probably be less than 3". The end wall which will be exterior and become interior will be covered on the outside with plywood and metal which I will rip off and replace with dairy sheeting when it becomes an interior wall.
Parlor- the biggest problem I antiicpate is time for me to milk or finding someone and paying them to milk. So anything I can do to improve sheep flow and minimize milking time seems a wise investment. Sheep milkout is about 3-5 minutes. It takes about 10 seconds for a rapid exit parlor to empty- but can take forever in a conventional parlor if the first sheep in the lane wants to turn around or balk, or if each ewe wants to check each stall on her way out for stray grains on the floor. The stalls are not particularly high since I'm not having any. It'll be a crowd system with a single long trough mounted on the hydraulic rail that raises to let them out, then lowers so it can be refilled. The trough will have a retractable cover so they'll have to go to the far end to get to the part that is open exposing the grain. A single pipe rail across the rear of the platform to hang milkers.
The platform will be expanded metal 40" above the ground. Far cheaper than concrete, and portable/resaleable if I need to move or get out. Sheep poop is solid pellets so clean up is just a matter of sweeping. Spot clean any runny messes, and easily enough hosed/scrubbed down if needed.
I don't see needing a double parlor for several years if at all. I can milk 80 ewes in less than two hours including cleanup in a single eight
if I can get an 8 minute turn time. With a rapid exit parlor a six minute turn is realistic, meaning I can save 20 minutes a milking. Most of the serious and seriously well performing parlors I've seen have been rapid exit. Given a design whihc requires littel additional material in stalls it's just the extra space under roof- which we can use for a basketball court or workout room or potting shed if this whole sheep dairy idea goes kablooie.
Eden
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